But even if they are good criticisms, I want to say that's not good enough to help you argument, Socrates.

但即使是好的，我想说，苏格拉底,那也不足以帮你论证。

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All that Simmias needs to cause problems for Socrates' argument is the claim that harmony is invisible and harmony can be destroyed.

西米亚斯为苏格拉底的论证,带来问题的只需要是,和声是无形的,但是可以毁灭。

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Socrates wins the argument in Book I with a kind of, you might even say, sleight of hand.

苏格拉底赢得了第一册的辩论,你可能会说，这个作法是花招。

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We have to ask oursleves when Socrates puts his argument forward, which of these you have in mind?

我们要问问自己当苏格拉底,提出自己论点的时候，他脑中的是这三个中的哪一个？

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And so sometimes we'll find ourselves thinking, "You know, there's an argument here that Socrates is putting forward.

所以有时候我们会这样想,看,这里有一个论证,是由苏格拉底提出的

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It's a very powerful argument that, in a way, Socrates makes against himself, putting that speech in the mouth of the laws.

这是很有力的申论，在某种程度上，苏格拉底自我违抗，转而以法律的立场说话。

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Glaucon Or Socrates and Glaucon, who hope to rule ? by the powers of reason, speech, and argument?

或像苏格拉底和，所希望,统治要视理性，演说及辩论的力道而定？

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But Plato's Socrates is necessarily poles apart from Aristophanes' Socrates depiction of him as a sort of sophist who makes the weaker argument the stronger.

但柏拉图的苏格拉底必然不同于,亚里斯多芬尼斯对苏格拉底的描述,后者将他描写成是,让虚弱申辩转强的诡辩家。

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As I say though, Plato may well recognize the inadequacy of that argument, because after all Socrates goes on to offer a series of other arguments.

柏拉图本身,可能已经认识到这个观点站不住脚,因为苏格拉底,还提供了一系列其他的观点

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Socrates says, "No. On the contrary, we do have reason, based on the argument from recollection, to conclude that the soul was around before we were born."

苏格拉底说,不对,恰恰相反,基于回忆论,我们有理由去说,灵魂存在于我们出生之前

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So if what Socrates means by invisibility is the first notion: can't be seen with your eyes, then the argument is not any good, harmony is a pretty compelling counterexample.

所以如果苏格拉底说的无形,是第一个意思：，眼睛看不见，这个论证就不好，和声是个很有说服力的反例。

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But I want to say, on Plato's behalf, no, it's not, on behalf of the argument, Socrates should never have concluded the argument with this odd qualifying phrase that the soul is indestructible or nearly so.

但是我想代表柏拉图说，不，是代表这个论证，苏格拉底绝不该,在这个结论里,加上这个奇怪的量的修饰词,灵魂几乎是不可摧毁的。

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But very nicely, is quite elegent structure this point, Socrates puts toghther the two arguments that we just been rehearsing, the argument from recollection and the argument that came before that, the one that I dubbed the argument from recycling.

但是这一观点的结构非常精妙,苏格拉底把我们刚才演练的,两个论证放在一块，即源于记忆的论证,和在此之前的论证，就是被我称作源于轮回的论证。

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So dispite the fact that Socrates draws this weaker conclusion, it seems to me that the argument he'd offered us, if it works at all, entitles us to draw the bolder conclusion not the soul is indestructible or nearly so, but the soul is indestructible.

因此即便苏格拉底得出的,这个结论力度弱些,我觉得如果这个论证过程可用，那就可以得出更大胆的结论,不是灵魂几乎不可摧毁,而是灵魂不可摧毁。

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