Even if something that did have free will would have to be non-physical, it wouldn't follow that we're non-physical.

即使某些有自由意志的东西,必然是非物质的,那也推不出来我们是非物质的

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We can certainly think about the forms, but if they're non-physical they can't be grasped by something physical like the body.

我们当然能想象型相,但假如他们是非现实的,他们将不能被现实的事物,比如肉体,所认知

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Now, roughly speaking, Socrates' seems to think it's going to follow straightforwardly from that that the soul must itself be something non-physical.

因此,粗略地讲,苏格拉底似乎认为,这就很明确地说明了,灵魂也必须是非现实的东西

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Give up the conclusion that we've got-- Give up the premise that "We've got free will," it won't follow that we're non-physical.

放弃我们已得到的结论,放弃"我们有自由意志"这个前提,就不能推出我们是非物质的

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Well, the dualist says, "That shows us that we have to believe that there's something non-physical about us.

二元论者认为,这表明我们必须相信,人有非物质性的一面

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Since that which grasps the ideas or forms must be eternal or non-physical-- it's eternal, it's immortal.

同时能认知理念,或者型相的事物必须是永恒的或非现实的,所以灵魂是永恒的,不朽的

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Two-- that which is eternal or non-physical can only be grasped by the eternal and the non-physical.

前提二,永恒和非现实的事物只能被,永恒和非现实的事物所认知

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It would seem to give us three, the conclusion we want-- that which grasps the ideas or the forms must be eternal or non-physical.

我们似乎就得到了第三条,也就是我们要的结论,能认知理念,或者型相的事物必须是永恒或非现实的

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So Platonic metaphysics gives us premise number one-- that ideas, forms, are eternal and they're non-physical.

柏拉图的形而上学论给了我们前提一,理念或者型相是永恒的,非现实的

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So Socrates has what he wants, once we give him premise number two, that the eternal, non-physical can only be grasped by the eternal, non-physical.

所以如果我们同意他的前提二,苏格拉底就得到了他想要的,前提二说永恒,非现实的事物,只能被永恒,非现实的事物认知

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So the Platonic metaphysics says quite generally, if we're thinking about the ideas or the forms, the point to grasp is they're eternal; they're non-physical.

柏拉图的形而上学论说得非常笼统,假如我们提到理念或者型相,要点就是他们是永恒的,是非现实的

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Well, I've emphasized the non-physical aspect, and I've emphasized as well that they're not changing.

我已经强调了非现实的方面,并且我也强调了他们的不变性

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Is it or isn't it true that those things which are eternal or non-physical can only be grasped by something that is itself eternal and non-physical?

我们是否可以说,那些永恒,或非现实的事物只能被,本身是永恒和非现实的其他事物认知呢

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They've got to be grasped by something non-physical--namely, the soul.

他们只能被,非现实的事物认知,比如灵魂

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The number three is eternal, as well as being non-physical.

数字"三"是永恒的,同时也是非现实的

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On the one hand, even if it were true that the soul must be non-physical in order to grasp the non-physical forms, wouldn't follow that the soul will survive the death of the body.

一方面,即使,灵魂必须是非现实的,以便来认知非现实的型相,也没法推导出,灵魂可以在肉体死亡之后存活

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It could be that even though the general claim, "It takes one to know one" Is false, the particular claim, "Eternal, non-physical can only be grasped by the eternal, non-physical," Maybe that particular claim is true.

即使一般来说,同类互知这个观点是错的,但它的特例,也就是永恒的非现实的东西只能被永恒的,非现实的东西所理解,这可能是对的

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If that which grasps the ideas or the forms must be eternal/non-physical, well one thing we're going to get is, since that which grasps the forms must be non-physical, the soul is not the body.

假如能认知,理念或者型相的事物必须是永恒,非现实的,那么我们能得到的结论是,既然能认知型相的事物必须是非现实的,而且灵魂并不是肉体

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To explain the fact that we've got free will, so the objection goes, we have to appeal to-- we have to posit--the existence of a soul, something non-physical, something more than purely physical.

要解释我们有自由意志这一事实,反驳者会说,我们不得不诉诸,或者假定灵魂存在,这里提到的灵魂是非物质并超出物质的东西

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Ideas or forms are eternal; they're non-physical.

理念或者型相是永恒的,是非现实的

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Even if there is an immortal soul-- Sorry. Even if there is a non-physical soul that's part of me, we don't yet have any reason to believe that it's one of the fundamental building blocks that were being recycled.

即使灵魂是不灭的,不对,即使有个非现实的灵魂是我的一部分,我们并没有任何理由去相信,灵魂是被循环利用的,基本组成部分之一

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If we give him number two, it's going to follow that whatever's doing the grasping-- call that the soul since the soul is just Plato's word for our mind-- if whatever's doing the grasping of the eternal and non-physical forms must itself be eternal and non-physical, it follows that the soul must be non-physical.

假如我们承认前提二,那么接下来就是不管是什么事物在认知,姑且称之为灵魂好了,因为灵魂是柏拉图对我们心灵的称呼,假如能够认知永恒,和非现实型相的事物本身必须是,永恒和非现实的,那么灵魂必须是非现实的

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