When we put the point in these terms we find ourselves coming right back to the usual old arguments about how large government should be: for it is about the value that we get from the marginal amount of government.

FORBES: If higher taxes are spent wisely, then a tax hike causes a big fall in employment.

We know we played very badly and we haven't done ourselves justice and I suppose the only positive is that we have a game in two days time to put it right.

BBC: England 'embarrassed' by collapse